Threads / Greatest NBA Players of All-Time: 181-200
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Please see my thread on my methodology for an explanation of how the players were ranked.
200. Elden Campbell (#45 among centers)
Campbell spent his early years as a Vlade Divac and Shaquille O'Neal's frontcourt mate in Los Angeles before really shining in a move to the Hornets. He never made an All-Star game, but was a steady and solid player for 15 years.
199. Larry Kenon (#43 among power forwards)
This skinny power forward was George Gervin's sidekick in San Antonio. A five-time All-Star, Kenon still shares the NBA record for steals in one game (11).
198. Otis Thorpe (#42 among power forwards)
Thorpe was a solid, unspectacular player all the way until age 38. He is probably best remembered as the second-best player on Hakeem Olajuwon's championship '94 Rockets, as well as the reason that the Grizzlies missed the opportunity to draft second in the 2003 Draft.
197. Donyall Marshall (#41 among power forwards)
He was a complete bust after signing with Cleveland, but Marshall had All-Star caliber years with Toronto, though he was never actually selected for that honor.
196. Mark Jackson (#34 among point guards)
Today he's a commentator for ABC Sports, but on the court he was a solid player with a long career who finished second all-time in assists. He was also probably Patrick Ewing's best teammate.
195. Tom Heinsohn (#40 among power forwards)
This is the first of many players on this top 200 who suited up for the Celtics in the '60s. If you can believe it, Heinsohn actually beat teammate Bill Russell for Rookie of the Year in 1957.
194. Lamar Odom (#39 among power forwards)
He's been traded a lot in his career, and even now he's the subject of trade rumors, but there's a good reason for it: the Lakers' forward is one of the NBA's most versatile players.
193. Randy Smith (#38 among shooting guards)
The two time All-Star Smith is most well-noted for two things: he is the all-time leading scorer for the Clippers franchise (though in his time they were the Buffalo Braves and the San Diego Clippers), and he was the all-time consecutive games leader before AC Green.
192. Joe Dumars (#37 among shooting guards)
Some will think that Dumars should rank higher, but the numbers don't justify it at all. He was a good player, and I gave him absolutely every benefit of the doubt, marking him down as a good defender despite having some terrible defensive ratings late in his career. Anyone who thinks he deserves to rank higher should take a good, hard look at his player page, because he was basically a role player.
191. Christian Laettner (#38 among power forwards)
Given how amazing his college career at Duke was, it's tempting to think of Laettner as a major disappointment. The truth though is that he was really a pretty good player who played a key role on some very good Hawks teams in the late 90s.
190. Billy Knight (#36 among shooting guards)
Knight was the best holdover from the ABA Pacers. Today he is more well-known for passing on both Deron Williams and Chris Paul despite needing a point guard as the GM of the Hawks.
189. Red Robbins (#37 among power forwards)
Robbins played his entire career in the ABA, putting up some very impressive numbers before the league improved and remaining a solid player after that. His career highlight was probably leading the New Orleans Buccaneers to the Finals as a rookie.
188. Swen Nater (#44 among centers)
The Dutch-born Nater bounced around in both leagues in the '70s for a while, never really finding a home where he could get major exposure. Throughout it all though, he remained a dependable scorer and one of the league's best on the boards.
187. Jimmy Jones (#35 among shooting guards)
A teammate of Robbins's for a couple of years on the ABA's Bucs, Jones came into his own as a star guard for the Utah Stars before finishing his career with the Washington Bullets.
186. Toni Kukoc (#40 among small forwards)
The Bulls probably would have won championships without Kukoc, but they wouldn't have been the best team of all time without him. Kukoc's high-efficiency offense helped open the door for similarly talented European players.
185. Roger Brown (#39 among small forwards)
Brown spent almost his entire career with Indiana Pacers in the ABA, and held a great many of that team's records before Reggie Miller.
184. Tom Chambers (#38 among small forwards)
Chambers was one of the top scorers of the 80s, but unfortunately didn't offer much else. Today he's mostly remembered for one of history's greatest dunks, and for the 1987 All-Star game MVP.
183. Richie Guerin (#34 among shooting guards)
Guerin had the unfortunate circumstance of propping up the Knicks' franchise while they were terrible, and being traded just before Willis Reed and Walt Frazier came into town. He was present on the floor for Wilt Chamberlain's 100 point game, but would probably like to forget it.
182. Happy Hairston (#36 among power forwards)
Trivia question: who was the second-leading rebounder for the 71-72 Lakers? It was none other than Hairston, a brutish, efficient player and excellent defender.
181. Bob Dandridge (#37 among small forwards)
The Greyhound was Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's sidekick during the latter's days with the Bucks. He was the jack-of-all-trades and second scoring option for one of the best teams in NBA history.
Stay tuned for 161-180, which will feature a major All-Star snub, multiple active guards, and probably the most overrated player ever.
200. Elden Campbell (#45 among centers)
Campbell spent his early years as a Vlade Divac and Shaquille O'Neal's frontcourt mate in Los Angeles before really shining in a move to the Hornets. He never made an All-Star game, but was a steady and solid player for 15 years.
199. Larry Kenon (#43 among power forwards)
This skinny power forward was George Gervin's sidekick in San Antonio. A five-time All-Star, Kenon still shares the NBA record for steals in one game (11).
198. Otis Thorpe (#42 among power forwards)
Thorpe was a solid, unspectacular player all the way until age 38. He is probably best remembered as the second-best player on Hakeem Olajuwon's championship '94 Rockets, as well as the reason that the Grizzlies missed the opportunity to draft second in the 2003 Draft.
197. Donyall Marshall (#41 among power forwards)
He was a complete bust after signing with Cleveland, but Marshall had All-Star caliber years with Toronto, though he was never actually selected for that honor.
196. Mark Jackson (#34 among point guards)
Today he's a commentator for ABC Sports, but on the court he was a solid player with a long career who finished second all-time in assists. He was also probably Patrick Ewing's best teammate.
195. Tom Heinsohn (#40 among power forwards)
This is the first of many players on this top 200 who suited up for the Celtics in the '60s. If you can believe it, Heinsohn actually beat teammate Bill Russell for Rookie of the Year in 1957.
194. Lamar Odom (#39 among power forwards)
He's been traded a lot in his career, and even now he's the subject of trade rumors, but there's a good reason for it: the Lakers' forward is one of the NBA's most versatile players.
193. Randy Smith (#38 among shooting guards)
The two time All-Star Smith is most well-noted for two things: he is the all-time leading scorer for the Clippers franchise (though in his time they were the Buffalo Braves and the San Diego Clippers), and he was the all-time consecutive games leader before AC Green.
192. Joe Dumars (#37 among shooting guards)
Some will think that Dumars should rank higher, but the numbers don't justify it at all. He was a good player, and I gave him absolutely every benefit of the doubt, marking him down as a good defender despite having some terrible defensive ratings late in his career. Anyone who thinks he deserves to rank higher should take a good, hard look at his player page, because he was basically a role player.
191. Christian Laettner (#38 among power forwards)
Given how amazing his college career at Duke was, it's tempting to think of Laettner as a major disappointment. The truth though is that he was really a pretty good player who played a key role on some very good Hawks teams in the late 90s.
190. Billy Knight (#36 among shooting guards)
Knight was the best holdover from the ABA Pacers. Today he is more well-known for passing on both Deron Williams and Chris Paul despite needing a point guard as the GM of the Hawks.
189. Red Robbins (#37 among power forwards)
Robbins played his entire career in the ABA, putting up some very impressive numbers before the league improved and remaining a solid player after that. His career highlight was probably leading the New Orleans Buccaneers to the Finals as a rookie.
188. Swen Nater (#44 among centers)
The Dutch-born Nater bounced around in both leagues in the '70s for a while, never really finding a home where he could get major exposure. Throughout it all though, he remained a dependable scorer and one of the league's best on the boards.
187. Jimmy Jones (#35 among shooting guards)
A teammate of Robbins's for a couple of years on the ABA's Bucs, Jones came into his own as a star guard for the Utah Stars before finishing his career with the Washington Bullets.
186. Toni Kukoc (#40 among small forwards)
The Bulls probably would have won championships without Kukoc, but they wouldn't have been the best team of all time without him. Kukoc's high-efficiency offense helped open the door for similarly talented European players.
185. Roger Brown (#39 among small forwards)
Brown spent almost his entire career with Indiana Pacers in the ABA, and held a great many of that team's records before Reggie Miller.
184. Tom Chambers (#38 among small forwards)
Chambers was one of the top scorers of the 80s, but unfortunately didn't offer much else. Today he's mostly remembered for one of history's greatest dunks, and for the 1987 All-Star game MVP.
183. Richie Guerin (#34 among shooting guards)
Guerin had the unfortunate circumstance of propping up the Knicks' franchise while they were terrible, and being traded just before Willis Reed and Walt Frazier came into town. He was present on the floor for Wilt Chamberlain's 100 point game, but would probably like to forget it.
182. Happy Hairston (#36 among power forwards)
Trivia question: who was the second-leading rebounder for the 71-72 Lakers? It was none other than Hairston, a brutish, efficient player and excellent defender.
181. Bob Dandridge (#37 among small forwards)
The Greyhound was Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's sidekick during the latter's days with the Bucks. He was the jack-of-all-trades and second scoring option for one of the best teams in NBA history.
Stay tuned for 161-180, which will feature a major All-Star snub, multiple active guards, and probably the most overrated player ever.
, NY
A conclusion: There are more centers on your top 200 than any other position. The position least represented, the most difficult to master: the point (as you can see I'm already enjoying your list, lol)
As the positions get bigger, they get more represented on my list, which reinforces what I always say, that the game of basketball is biased toward tall people.
haha, nice, it's a major reason why I personally like to focus on the centers, not as much style, but full of substance (that and the fact that was my position as a 14 year old kid in my church league. At 5'10 w/ limited offensive skills I was the 2nd coming of Bill Russell, lol
Looks like a good start. I am surprised Donyell Marshall got onto this list. Did not know that Heinsohn won the ROY. I might have put Kukoc slightly higher for his time with the Bulls, but I have no idea who is coming on the list.
Interseting syart, didn't expect to see Dumars and Odom there
Anway Quick Q
Where would you rank pple like Larry Hughes, Jason Terry and Leandro Barbosa?
Anway Quick Q
Where would you rank pple like Larry Hughes, Jason Terry and Leandro Barbosa?
Madison, WI
Wow, was not expecting to see Donyell Marshall on there. Also thought Thorpe would be a little higher, but I can understand why a career secondary player would be at the end of this list.
Good start. Can't wait to see who your most overrated player is.
Good start. Can't wait to see who your most overrated player is.
It'll be no secret to anyone who's paid attention to the kind of stuff I'm always talking about around here.
Good stuff man. When you making the next thread like this? Surprised a few guys were where they were but it looks like a really solid list to me. Well done.
This is going to be a great thread series. Thanks for taking the time to do this, panic. Donyell Marshall had potential and I truly believe if he wasn't trapped on the awful Golden State Warriors all those years during what should have been his prime, he would have been putting up pretty solid numbers like he did for Utah. The fact that he worked under such terrible coaching & no real vets to help guide his game for so long really hurt him imo.
Nice job. Like everyone else said, the fact that Donyall Marshall is a top 200 player of all-time is pretty surprising.
I'm impressed that nobody's outright disagreeing with it. Truthfully, I was surprised by his being there too, but once I saw him there, I thought, "Hmm, yeah, I'm OK with that."
I forgot to post everyone's ratings in my system. Here's what they were, so that everyone can see how they close/far apart they were:
200. Elden Campbell (556971.98)
199. Larry Kenon (559161.58)
198. Otis Thorpe (569545.34)
197. Donyell Marshall (571113.6)
196. Mark Jackson (571598.33)
195. Tom Heinsohn (574553.26)
194. Lamar Odom (578385.60)
193. Randy Smith (580198.84)
192. Joe Dumars (586518.00)
191. Christian Laettner (587366.93)
190. Billy Knight (590492.17)
189. Red Robbins (590949.50)
188. Swen Nater (591295.58)
187. Jimmy Jones (599949.05)
186. Toni Kukoc (609814.81)
185. Roger Brown (611204.05)
184. Tom Chambers (611534.04)
183. Richie Guerin (617595.98)
182. Happy Hairston (626409.29)
181. Bob Dandridge (628454.86)
200. Elden Campbell (556971.98)
199. Larry Kenon (559161.58)
198. Otis Thorpe (569545.34)
197. Donyell Marshall (571113.6)
196. Mark Jackson (571598.33)
195. Tom Heinsohn (574553.26)
194. Lamar Odom (578385.60)
193. Randy Smith (580198.84)
192. Joe Dumars (586518.00)
191. Christian Laettner (587366.93)
190. Billy Knight (590492.17)
189. Red Robbins (590949.50)
188. Swen Nater (591295.58)
187. Jimmy Jones (599949.05)
186. Toni Kukoc (609814.81)
185. Roger Brown (611204.05)
184. Tom Chambers (611534.04)
183. Richie Guerin (617595.98)
182. Happy Hairston (626409.29)
181. Bob Dandridge (628454.86)
nice start guy. I'm glad to see Elden Campbell made the list, nice talent, he just wasn't the most motivated guy. Red Robbins is a surprise. He was a very good player however since it's the "Greatest NBA Players of All-Time" I didn't think he would qualify. Glad you started at #200, working towards #1.
Otis Thorpe @ #198 interest me. I'll be looking very closely for all the players in that Olajuwon-Ewing championship series to see which actually had the better players (at least according to your rating). Mark Jackson, Ewing's best teammate, interesting comment. Thanks for the Happy Hairston & Bobby Dandridge memories. Adding pictures is the cherry on top.
Otis Thorpe @ #198 interest me. I'll be looking very closely for all the players in that Olajuwon-Ewing championship series to see which actually had the better players (at least according to your rating). Mark Jackson, Ewing's best teammate, interesting comment. Thanks for the Happy Hairston & Bobby Dandridge memories. Adding pictures is the cherry on top.
I adjusted each player's PER to reflect his abilities on defense. The question I asked was, "By the standards of a great player, how good was this guy on defense?" If someone's defense was what we'd normally expect from someone who was really good, I left his PER alone. For guys who were just average or bad defenders, I knocked a point off. For very good defender, I gave 1 point. For transcendent, amazing, game changing defenders (Pippen, Olajuwon, Mutombo, Robinson, Frazier, etc.) I gave two points. Bill Russell got 4 points. A difference of even one point made a huge difference in where a player got ranked, so I REALLY gave Bill Russell the benefit of the doubt here.
Am I misunderstanding something, because it seems like 4 points would make no difference when the points are in the hundreds of thousands (and I'm assuming they will get into the millions).
Am I misunderstanding something, because it seems like 4 points would make no difference when the points are in the hundreds of thousands (and I'm assuming they will get into the millions).
Oh, sorry, maybe I was unclear. I meant points of PER, not points overall. When you throw that adjustment into the equation, it makes a huge difference, on the order of hundreds of thousands of points in the ratings.
, NJ
You're putting the lists out how every so often?
haha, loook at Joe Dumars.
CL this high is crazy...since I thought he wasn't that great.
haha, loook at Joe Dumars.
CL this high is crazy...since I thought he wasn't that great.
I'm not sure. I may do another 20 tonight.
As for Laettner, remember that "greatness" is a relative term this far down the list. I'm basically saying his contemporaries historically are Swen Nater and Red Robbins.
As for Laettner, remember that "greatness" is a relative term this far down the list. I'm basically saying his contemporaries historically are Swen Nater and Red Robbins.
Randy Smith was well known for something else, being a major pain in the butt for Walt Frazier. Smith was extremely quick, the type of guard that gave Clyde problems.
This is good list. Hpanic you are going the have the best threads surrounding this subject. It's almost as anticipated as the All - Star weekend. My hats off to you man!
, MN
Great job so far. Nice to learn some about some players I don't know. However, I'm a little surprised on a few so far; Thorpe, Jackson and Chambers all seemed a little low to me, but I don't think I could justify Chamber or Thorpe being much higher. But, Jackson was a very very good court general and I think you have him slightly too low.
Those guys were never great, is the thing. They had several mediocre seasons, and no great ones. That puts you pretty low on my list.
After thinking about it, I agree on Chambers and Thorpe, but am really excited to see where and who the other PGs are that are coming up in the next 25-50 players before I say much more about Jackson.
Great job so far BTW.
Great job so far BTW.
I'm pretending that the NBA ended tomorrow.
Odom could rise, hold steady, or fall off the list entirely. For now, this list represents a snapshot of NBA history from right now.
Odom could rise, hold steady, or fall off the list entirely. For now, this list represents a snapshot of NBA history from right now.
, MD
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